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Doctors and Nurses

From the patients point of view, therefore doctors, don’t take offence!

I’ve been reading Dr. Crippen’s blog, as I usually do. He’s a GP who is very critical of “nurse specialists” who he feels are part of the intrinsic “dumbing down” of the NHS, doing jobs that they’re not qualified to do. His blog is excellent, even if he does tag his posts with enlightened words like “slag” and “lard bucket”. It’s like reading the words of people who shout names at me in the street and confirms my opinion that GPs are by and large massively prejudiced. Still, it does make for interesting reading.

I accept his points, and I can see why it would bother him, from the point of a patient. I think people believe that if you’re in NHS mental health services that you would see a psychiatrist on every visit, as they are the only medical types who are qualified to diagnose mental illness and to prescribe medication for it. This isn’t the case, and the actual frequency is around every six months. (Which makes me wonder sometimes what some psychiatrists are actually paid for. The consultant in my CMHT works part-time yet earns roughly three times as much as the full-time mental health nurse. I guess a lot of them work in inpatient facilities). They’re sometimes called in during crisis points and when your nurse believes that a medication needs to be adjusted or changed. Aside from that, though, in my case at least the input of the psychiatrist has been minimal. I couldn’t even tell you his name.

The vast majority of patient work in my CMHT is undertaken by nurses. It’s a bit of a treadmill; sometimes a person will end in hospital, be stabilised by nurses, be diagnosed by a psychiatrist then will be punted back into the community under the care of even more nurses. This is how it worked with me.

The role of my CPN is to keep an eye out for serious mood shifts, to note down how I seem to be doing, to see how medication is affecting me and to be someone who I can talk to for an hour a week about how I feel. Shes currently trying to sort out some therapy (and hey, it’s only taken two years) so her role is more therapeutic than medical. She rarely crosses that line, so Dr. Crippen would probably like her. She’s never suggested medication or medical treatment. She leaves that to the psychiatrist.

I much prefer dealing with nurses than I do with psychiatrists. Part of this is due to one of my own prejudices- I am uncomfortable with wealth. I don’t like sitting opposite someone who is judging me and who will drive to his or her own nice home when I will shuffle back to my existence on benefits. I feel deeply ashamed sitting in my ill-fitting clothes as their designer watch glints in the morning light. It is a prejudice, I’m aware of it.

I have never met a psychiatrist who has even attempted to show a shred of humanity to me. Nurses do, because you establish a rapport with them. Occasionally, you’ll see a slice of their own life. In my CPN’s car, I saw her baby seat so then knew she had a young son who she sometimes mentioned afterwards. I know she used to smoke and is jealous when I roll my cigarettes at the end of our meetings. Psychiatrists, though, are all business, and it’s difficult to speak to someone like that, especially when you are already guarded and paranoid.

I did like the psychiatrist who I met in hospital. He had a whiff of eccentric geography teacher about him. He airily entered room with stitched patches on his tweedy elbows and introduced himself by first name and last name with a firm, toothy handshake. He explained my diagnosis to me (and I hadn’t realised that the previous conversation I had had with another consultant was an interview) and remarked that I was manic at the moment, which I vehemently denied. (I was, of course, and spent the bus journey home believing that we were being followed).

Over time, though, I liked him less because of his businesslike manner. Yes, he was quite charming, but his to-the-point-ness worked in a setting where I needed a firm plan, and less so in the period afterwards where I needed a thread of sympathy or understanding as I struggled to accept my diagnosis and suffered badly from ongoing mood episodes.

Another psychiatrist I met years and years before was someone that I hated instantly. In retrospect, I was pretty unwell at the time. I had an appointment booked because my school were worried about my behaviour. I was fairly paranoid, and I sat in the waiting room for an hour or so, increasingly convinced that this whole scenario was a set-up and that I was being filmed. When I finally did meet him, I trusted him so little that we barely spoke, and that was that. I just thought that he was fooling me and lying to me, and I wouldn’t go back.

I admire psychiatrists and would love to be one, if I had the education. Mental illness is fascinating, but I think you need a different touch when dealing with mentally ill patients. A wham-bam-thank-you-mam plan is excellent, of course, but sometimes your patients will be paranoid, terrified and not wholly accepting that they’re unwell at all. A clinical approach to a person like that isn’t going to be helpful. Mental illness is not as easily explainable as physical illness, they are feelings, sensations, ideas and beliefs rather than symptoms and sites of pain. “Psychotic” is not psychotic, it’s the way you’re perceiving the world and yourself. You can’t point to a part of the brain and say, “This is wrong”. The whole “wrong” thing is horrible in itself. Mental illness suggests that your mind is broken and faulty, when to the person suffering from it, its inexorably linked with who they are.

The psychiatrists who have treated me have been very straightforward when it comes to my treatment. Dr. Isaacs, for example:

“I hate my medication. I hate the side effects and how it makes me feel”.

“Well, if you don’t take it, you’ll end up in hospital again”.

“…”

“I keep getting fired from work because of my behaviour”.

“Well, if you stop working, you’ll have no money”.

“Fab, I hadn’t thought about that”.

With my CPN, though, it’s a bit different. Same conversation, but a little more exploration of why I hate my medication, and the trade-off of being insane and being numb. She understands that it’s my choice as to whether I take medication or not, and is not so stark as to bluntly tell me that I’ll become really ill again if I quit taking it, although she implies it often.

Nurses, then, I think are extremely important in mental health care. For the paranoid, they are not as consistently scrutinising as psychiatrists are, nor as clinical. They’re not there to diagnose you with anything, even if it’s fairly clear that you do in fact have a certain diagnosis. They are just that little bit more human and on your level.

And, as I said, I think GPs are a massively prejudiced group of people. They see a lot of preventable or near preventable illnesses caused by lifestyle choices so, in my experience, if you smoke or you’re fat, you’re not even worth treating because everything that’s wrong with you is your fault. Tarring a lot of people with the same brush here but if Dr. Crippen can do it, then so can I. In terms of mental illness, I’ve been told in the past to “cheer up”, “stop moping”, “lose weight” and “sleep more”. Easy, innit.

The doctor blogs I read are at once fascinating and disturbing. We are all human, I know, but I think that if you’re a doctor, you are in such a position of power that, like the police, you really must push your own prejudices to one side. The reason I read those blogs is because they are all want things to change. I would like to reform the NHS, too. Pay staff more, make therapy mandatory and easily available for seriously mentally ill patients, pour funding into mental health care, set guidelines so that all patients get the same high standard of care (and abolish private healthcare. Yes, people like choice but it inevitably means that people who can afford it get better care) and open crisis centres across the country as alternatives to hospital treatment.

I’m not bashing doctors and especially not doctors who call for reform and care about their patients. What I don’t like, though, is the contempt for some patients that run through blogs. They’re written by humans, but it scares me to think that doctors size up their patients as lardbuckets or drunks.

It also frightens me how mental health services vary from borough to borough. My borough, Islington, is so much better than my old borough, Haringey, to the point where Haringey has a reputation for being awful. They’re only two miles apart, and yet the treatment that you receive in each is vastly different. This is really one of my contention points and probably why I have such a dim view of mental health services in general. I haven’t dealt with the best psychiatrists, just overstretched, oversubscribed ones. Then it’s no wonder that nurses take the helm, and no wonder that I prefer being treated by them.

18 Responses

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  2. I must being the exception since being diagnosed I have seen the same psychiatrist about every two weeks. He is overtly clinical though.

  3. Go nurses! :D

    As regards Dr Crippen, I don’t have a problem with people debating the rights and wrongs of the likes of nurse specialists and nurse practitioners, but when insults like “quacktitioner” are shouted about and they’re held up as supposedly responsible for every single thing that’s wrong with the NHS then it ceases to be a debate.

    The actual answer to the debate is that *some* nurse specialists/practitioners are doing jobs that would be better done by actual doctors…and *some* nurse specialists/practitioners are working well within their competency and adding genuine value to services. The question is how one distinguishes the two, and you can’t do that in the context of a screaming match.

    I tend to bother less and less with Dr Crippen’s blog these days, for the simple reason that whenever anyone tries to reason with him or provide counter-arguments he simply responds like a sanctimonious tosser. Also, for a blogger who frequently criticises others for going outside their areas of competency, he frequently seems shockingly unaware of when he’s going outside his own competency. Whenever I’ve debated him on the subject of nurse education (one of his frequent targets for criticism/abuse) he often shows himself to be surprisingly unaware of ongoing developments in that particular field.

    Also, for someone who claims to have a clinical interest in psychiatry, his knowledge of psychiatry often comes across as surprisingly superficial.

  4. Nurses are excellent, and my CPN is quite lovely. The psychiatrist I saw a couple of days ago scared me senseless mind you. She met with my CPN in the nurses room for what felt like forever, and similarly to your experience, I felt they’d been talking about me (of course) but I mean REALLY talking about me, and plotting. She then brought me to tears by pushing a point over and over again despite my argument that I couldn’t control my moods myself, or I wouldn’t be there.

    So, like you, I much prefer working with nurses like those from the crisis team. Crisis centres across the country would be a fantastic move forward.

  5. It’s very interesting reading your viewpoints about your NHS.
    Sometimes it’s hard to picture ore even understand what CPN or NHS are, for example hehe.

    Sharing my own experience:
    I’m from a quite far away third-world country with a severely crippled public health system which has NO long-term support for mental illness, other than ‘mad houses’ and ‘dope-till-you-are-calm’ doctors.
    The only time I set my feet on a public hospital was when I was choking with severe allergic reaction (unrelated with my mentally interesting stuff) and was thrown in there alone, none of my friends and family was allowed to come with me. Dragged here and there, they forgot about me with an access (don’t know if this is the right word) stuck open on my left arm on the middle of an overcrowded corridor with admitted patients. One hour later, feeling better, I managed to find a nurse willing to TALK to me and take that thing off me. Then I fled in a fashion like ‘fuck, rather die on the street’.

    All my treatment is privately paid and is very very expensive (third world plus bonus). I have insurance but my psychiatrist decided he’s not gonna accept any insurance anymore, so fuck the patients. The therapy isn’t covered either, neither are the meds.
    There’s lithium avaliable on public health system, but you really don’t want to go there and rot your ass on the never ending lines. It’s the cheaper of all I’m taking now, so, whatever, I’m buying it on my own.

    I work to pay my shit, I live with my grandma and recieve help from my father now and then. And still I’m always broke. But there’s not much to do, no other options really.
    I just try to be grateful, since most can’t afford my ‘option’.

    Eh.

  6. We don’t have mental health nurses over here. Everything is taken care of directly by psychiatrists, but I still hate them. I’ve had three and I hate them all, and I know they try, but I hate how everything is so normal to them that if you’re intensely suicidal in front of them, nothing inside them moves.

    I wanted to be a psychiatrist for a while, but everytime I think about it I picture them in my head. I realize this is silly because I can be different, but can I?

  7. I’ve had the opposite experience; the nurses I’ve met made me feel like I was just being cosied along by someone who felt I should ‘buck up’, and was surprised that a nice chat didn’t solve my problems.

    Whereas the psychiatrist was more to the point and has made some good practical suggestions that have helped me (medication, organising therapy, dealing with employment).

    Which I guess just goes to show that a lot depends on the individual person you meet – and on your own style of communicating.

  8. …feeling a bit argumentative this morning. anyway.

    I think if the psychiatrist is constrained so that you can only see them once in a blue moon, it’s more honest to keep things fairly formal and business-like, rather than pretend you’re meeting for anything other than the business of getting well. That’s discipline rather than some sleight against you individually.

    In terms of abolishing private health care, I disagree because people paying for private health care do so in addition to paying NI contributions, so they’re still contributing to the NHS.

    in terms of smoking,

    If I deliberately burnt my house down, neither of us would expect an insurance company to pay for repairs – and if I did get insurance money after a deliberate fire, that’s a fraud and a crime I could be jailed for.

    …so why should public health insurance cover treatments for smoking, when we know it’s injurious?

  9. I was diagnosed by a senior shrink back in2004, and since then have had 6 different phyciatrists. I was lucky once, in Richmond when I had an amazing CPN who helped me come to terms with the whole ‘ you have bipolar’ turmoil that most newly diagnosed people go through. Since then, I haven’t had the benefit of a CPN, I see a junior ( newly qualified) phyciatrist who basically just adjusts my medication as and when required. After a year they move on to pastures new ( normally a local in-patient facility) so as soon as you get a proper patient/doctor relationship they move on, which is frustrating.
    I am glad that you have a CPN, and that they are considering sorting out phycotherapy for you, which can be quite traumatic, and as yet, they don’t think I am ’stable’ enough to manage the strain of it.
    My current phyciatrist has no idea about ‘real world’ problems, like being on benefits, housing issues etc etc, I think she lives in a bubble of her own, all she is concerned about is my compliance with my medication.
    It’s great that you have a good CPN, and I think that they are undervalued, and possibly underpaid compared to phyciatrists who just write prescriptions.
    Glad you are doing so well!

  10. Hello. I’ve been lurking on your blog for a while. This is such a good, insightful post. In fact, all your posts are. Would you mind if I put you on my blogroll?

  11. Rachel your experience is similar to mine. My partner has bipolar. When she was very severely depressed we had nurses from the crisis team visiting twice a day. Apart from the Team Leader they were hopeless. They all seemed out of their depth. Really obvious mistakes like asking my partner questiosn and then not giving her long enough to think about her response and reply. If you are very depressed your thoughts are slower and you need to leave moretime for people to reply – pretty basic stuff. Another nurse accused her to her face of being aggressive because my partner wasn’t talking that much. They were just awful.

  12. In socialist healthcare countries, it seems like psychiatry gets the shittiest deal – it is just not something that systems like NHS cover very well. I have come to understand that I have to pay privately, because the system is set up to deal with emergencies only – the real deal manic episodes, psychosis. Much else, including suicidality, depression, anxiety, are considered by that system as “cosmetic” problems.

    The psychiatrists I meet professionally working in the public sector are pretty uniformly as you described them. The bottom of the barrel. In academia, they are like academically oriented doctors of any specialty (in short, bad clinicians who don’t like patients). There is just no public psychiatry system until patients hit bottom – and then the system is paltry at best.

    Most of the time I am not ill enough to qualify for any services – medication consults once a year even. But if I were not able to buy private services, labs, medication, I would be ill enough easily to end up in the public system. But then I’d also be unemployed and probably unemployable. As is, I can hardly afford the office visits I need.

    Somehow, that’s fucked up.

    It’s just that psychiatry is seen even within the medical profession as a bastard stepchild. Either critically ill patients who no one cares about because of their demographic, or as a fluffy luxury for people with more money than worries. Everyone else falls in between.

  13. I am with Rachel on this one. We have nurses who do the mental health work as well….and we can see the pdoc only if the cpn authorizes it.

    I do not consider myself to be difficult to get along with, even when in the midst of bipolar madness. That said, I usually dont contact help until I have come round somewhat.

    I have found that my relationship with the cpn follows the same rules as our relationships with anybody else does. Some people like you…and you them…others..not so much.

    For whatever reason, mine will not return phone calls. I even did the then unthinkable for me…and that was to place a call when I was in severe distress. I got her voice mail and left a message telling her what was happening emotionally as well as physically. I am med compliant, and I think that what I am taking is causing some issues. I have terrible teeth grinding that is giving my dentist fits….I am in so much pain I have difficulty eating, and I have lost about 10 pounds in a couple of weeks. I just feel terrible.

    Now I dont know what to do. I am going to my gp, and I will run all this by him. I think the only thing I can do now, is ask for a referral to a pdoc in the nearest city, which is 9 hours south of me. A bit dramatic perhaps…but its all I am left with.

    I guess my concern is, that the woman who is my cpn doesnt seem to understand, that when bipolar rears its ugly head….I dont always have the kind of control needed to make rational decisions. Its like she tries to punish me, for being “crazy” and missing an appointment because I was literally frozen to my bed. It woudl be more comforting to have someone who understood that I am not trying to be an arse…..sometimes I cant help it.

  14. I think a lot of it can depend on individuals. Currently I work in a CMHT with a consultant who has a great ‘bedside manner’ with patients and is very approachable.
    I see the point about the class divide though. I think it’s much more obvious with some and some seek to emphasis it which I think is another element of power play.
    Of course, in a multi-disciplinary team the care coordination is just undertaken by nurses (!) but often it is a question of individuals. Someone we feel more connection to for any reason will be more effective – someone who makes sense and treats us as an individuals and responds likewise – is more likely to be someone who will be able to to provide a more substantial therapeutic role – and the profession is not, perhaps, the key.

  15. I love reading your perspective on all this – some really great points. I’m under the Australian system but I’ve had pretty similar experiences with psychiatrists here. Indeed, I’ve had one hospitalisation in which I never saw a psychiatrist, not once. It was the nurses who did all the case management, as is normally the state of play. And not only were they a kind and soothing presence for my agitated, flat lined state but were able to set me up with real care, and real help.

    Psychiatrists, in my experience, are condescending and simply unable to put themselves in the shoes of the patient. I understand their boundaries must be very, very firm to do what they do but still, on balance I think med schools should be focusing on teaching bedside manner. It *is* different with mental illness, as you so cogently point out.

  16. I think it really just depends on the person rather than the job title.

    When I was an in-pt on a psychi ward (1month in 2006) my psychiatrist changed 3 times because they were all locums, so never developed any kind of relationship with any of them. The nurses were a real mixed bunch — some were amazing, others hid in the office all day.

    When I was in an eating disorders unit the psychiatrist was great – very very relaxed (and I think some of the nurses thought too laid back), but painfully honest with me but it was what I needed at the time. However tis was a private establishment and my PCT were funding my place there.

    I’ve never had a CPN but as of about 3 months ago I do now have a psychiatris whom I see regularly, every 6weeks or there abouts. I’m most impressed with him, his referred come through in a matter of weeks rather than months. I’m not sure he fully gets me but I think he is quite a practical type who tries to help where he can

    As for psychotherapists , I hold my hands up in despair. I met one, who assesed me over three appointmets and decided I needed in-pt treatmet in the EDU who I found impossible to connect with. He told it exactly as he saw it and I was hugely offended. When I was discharged, I was referred back to him. We met once, I just didn’t like him and he declared me not suitable dr psychotherapy at that time, which was fine by me.
    the other one I met was in the EDU, I never got any therapy off her but she hed to make the other girls cry. She appeared pretty damn harsh and to the point.

    I have an appointment with a psychotherapist in 2 weeks, as referred to by my psychiatrist. I’m guarded and sceptica as to what the outcome of this encounter may be.

    Stay safe
    xXx

  17. I just sacked my CPN and Care Co-Ordinator [Mrs Ludmilla Lurch RMN on http://www.the-newrepublic.blogspot.com ]. She was unbelievebly loud, garrulous and insincere – it got to the point where I couldn’t bare to hear her voice. The fact that her accent was so strong I could hardly understand her, didn’t help. My shrink, Dr Valkyrie Gorgeous has also been dismissed for being too tall, too brainy and too sexy. After 37 years of mental health care, I’ve become quite particular.

  18. [...] on well with most of the psychiatrists I have met. I was very interested in Seaneen’s post on doctors vs. nurses. Unusually perhaps, I much prefer doctors. I get on okay with social workers. I haven’t got [...]

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